Fifty people were coming to his grand opening the next morning. His tea was in Tokyo.
Roy Fong had flown to Hong Kong a week before opening with two hundred dollars in his pocket and one Visa card. He talked a wholesaler into selling him two cases of tea on credit — six or seven hundred dollars’ worth, an enormous sum to him then. He landed in San Francisco on July 3, 1993 and stood at the luggage belt until every other passenger was gone.
“Mr. Fong, I’m sorry to inform you — your luggages are in Tokyo.”
His wife was waiting outside. Two hours later he walked out of the terminal almost in tears, and did not sleep all night.
At 6:30 the next morning, United Airlines called.
Roy Fong has been importing Chinese tea since the mid-1980s, when he was the West Coast distributor for the Yunnan Tea Import and Export Corporation. He ages more than forty tons of Pu-erh at a time. He has sold 1989 cakes at two thousand dollars each. He is a Taoist priest. And he believes every tea in your cup is a living being you are meeting for the first time.
IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL DISCOVER
- ◆The opening-day disaster — two cases of tea stranded in Tokyo, fifty guests arriving in hours
- ◆Sheng and shou: the two kinds of Pu-erh, and why they are two different animals
- ◆Why a 357-gram cake of 1989 Pu-erh sold for $2,000 — after he paid $4 a kilo
- ◆The “first hello” — what the fragrance of the rinsed leaf is telling you
- ◆Why he deliberately left the insulation off his warehouse roof
- ◆The day he burned his hand in the wok — and the girl who did not flinch
- ◆The wrong staircase that led to a Taoist temple, on a birthday he did not know he had
- ◆What Bruce Lee’s most famous line has to do with tea
Story Highlights
| Time | Topic |
|---|---|
| 0:00 | Welcome to the Show |
| 0:39 | Two Cantonese Tea People |
| 1:59 | Importing Chinese Tea Since the Mid-1980s |
| 3:33 | From Hong Kong to America at Thirteen |
| 4:10 | Going Back at Twenty-One |
| 5:06 | Following His Nose Into a Tea Shop |
| 6:29 | A 40-Foot Container and Six Workmen |
| 8:00 | Why He Opened on the Fourth of July |
| 8:24 | Two Hundred Dollars and a Visa Card |
| 9:59 | The Luggage Was in Tokyo |
| 11:49 | The Old Lady Who Wagged Her Fingers |
| 12:21 | The First Hundred-Dollar Day |
| 12:37 | The Chronicle Changes Everything |
| 13:55 | The Old Men and Their Songbirds |
| 14:57 | Roasting Their Own Monkey Picked Tea |
| 19:33 | The Great Teas of China |
| 20:46 | Sheng and Shou: Two Kinds of Pu-erh |
| 23:45 | Aging Forty Tons in a California Warehouse |
| 25:31 | Yunnan’s 1,800-Year-Old Tea Trees |
| 31:57 | A 1989 Cake at $2,000 |
| 35:31 | Your First Hello With the Tea |
| 40:48 | How to Start Drinking Pu-erh |
| 44:40 | Rolling, Firing, and Why Every Step Matters |
| 47:10 | The Day He Burned His Hand in the Wok |
| 53:57 | Be Like Water, Be Like Tea |
| 57:41 | A Wuyi Tea Poem |
| 1:00:42 | Tai Chi, Taoism, and the Star Praising Ceremony |
About Roy Fong
Roy Fong founded Imperial Tea Court in San Francisco with his wife Grace, opening on July 4, 1993 on the edge of Chinatown. “I like to claim that we’re probably the only authentic tea shop, Chinese tea shop, in the US at the time,” he says — a hedge he places himself. Others had sold tea before him, he grants, and Chinese merchants had done a great deal of tea business before him. What was different, he says, is that in Chinese tea-shop culture the proprietors supposedly have something to do with every tea that they procure.
Born in Hong Kong, where Pu-erh — bo lei, as Cantonese call it — flows through every dim sum table, he immigrated to the United States at thirteen with a sixth-grade education and no English. He has been importing Chinese tea since the mid-1980s, beginning as the West Coast distributor for the Yunnan Tea Import and Export Corporation.
He is the author of The Great Teas of China, available through imperialtea.com. He is also a priest of the Ching Chung Taoist Association of America — the first, he says, ordained in America for that temple — a path he found by walking up the wrong staircase.
ROY FONG’S CONTRIBUTION TO TEA
- ◆Co-founder, Imperial Tea Court, San Francisco — opened July 4, 1993 with his wife Grace, on the edge of Chinatown
- ◆Pu-erh importer and ager — more than forty tons aged at a time in his own California warehouse
- ◆Author, The Great Teas of China — available through imperialtea.com
- ◆West Coast distributor, Yunnan Tea Import and Export Corporation — his entry into the trade in the mid-1980s
- ◆Taoist priest, Ching Chung Taoist Association of America
“Some of us were lucky enough to choose tea. Those of us who are extraordinarily lucky — tea chose you.”
— Roy Fong
The Luggage Was in Tokyo
The plan was simple and underfunded. A week before opening, fly to Hong Kong with two hundred dollars and a Visa card. Persuade a wholesaler to sell on credit. Fly home July 2, open July 4.
The persuading worked, barely. Roy handed over a list of the teas he wanted and, by his own account, told a sixty-year-old roasting master how he was firing them incorrectly. He made no friends. He suspects they shipped him two cases mainly to be rid of him.
He arrived on United early on July 3 and waited at the belt until the hall emptied. Ten minutes at the counter produced the sentence.
“Mr. Fong, I’m sorry to inform you — your luggages are in Tokyo.”
“But I’m opening tomorrow,” he said.
At 6:30 the next morning — while he was still working out how to tell the fifty people he had badgered into coming — United called: “Mr. Fong, we got your packages. Where should we deliver it?” He was floored. They delivered the packages by eight.
Imperial Tea Court opened on the Fourth of July, 1993. The date was partly patriotism and partly strategy: his friends all had the day off, and he reasoned they had better come support him.
They took in about three hundred dollars. Rent was a thousand and change. Roy told his wife: you and I work for free, and we can do this.
Following His Nose
Roy left Hong Kong at thirteen, speaking no English, four foot eleven and ninety pounds. He spent his teens trying to be as American as possible, and home receded.
At twenty-one — the first year he could afford the trip — something flipped a switch and he went back. He spent nearly a month there and every dollar of his short lifetime’s savings.
Walking a district of old tea shops, antique dealers, and dried-seafood sellers, his nose caught what he calls an indescribable fragrance. He followed it into a shop where the owner was doing the final roasting of his Tieguanyin oolong. He made friends with the man and spent the rest of his vacation there, practically becoming part of the shop.
He flew home having thrown away his clothes to fill a suitcase with tea.
A 40-Foot Container and Six Workmen
In 1991 a business contact from China asked what they might do together. Roy said he had always wanted to build a real tea shop.
With her help came one 40-foot container of materials and six workmen from China. Roy signed a fifteen-year lease.
The six turned out to be leaders in their company who had not done physical work in years. Their first question on arrival was how many helpers he would be hiring for them. It is a thousand square feet, Roy protested — there are six of you. “Well, yeah,” they said, “but we supervise. We don’t work.”
He sent them home and hired a local crew. His father, a contractor, came out of retirement to finish the job. Building the shop took two years, and when it was done Roy was destitute and still had to pay off his partner.
The Old Lady Who Wagged Her Fingers
Day two, Roy and his wife opened the door and waited half a day. Nobody came in.
Then an old lady entered slowly, reluctantly, and examined every single item on display in the store. Then she wagged her finger at him.
“Do you know how much they’re selling these in Chinatown? You’re crazy. You’re my son, I’d kill you.”
— the old lady, as Roy recalls her
It took almost three months to reach their first hundred-dollar day. Roy was ecstatic, took his wife to dinner, and spent the hundred in two blinks.
Then the San Francisco Chronicle arrived. A reporter said they were doing something unique and sat drinking tea with him for over two hours. A week later a full-page story ran on the food page — and the climb began. The New York Times, Gourmet, and Bon Appétit followed.
The old men of Chinatown delivered the real verdict. Shortly after the article, a group came in and said: We’ve been looking for a place like this to bring our songbirds. Every Saturday after that they hung their caged birds on the shop’s latticework, took a table, and drank tea, argued, laughed, and lied to each other the way men do.
Sheng and Shou: Two Different Animals
Ask Roy to explain Pu-erh and he starts with a correction: there is not one Pu-erh.
| Sheng — Raw | Shou — Ripe | |
|---|---|---|
| Starting point | Made from green tea | Same leaf, but water is added |
| Process | Oxidises with air, slowly aged | Water encourages bacteria, which become mould that changes the leaf |
| Young taste | Bright, astringent | Dark, earthy |
| Aging arc | Turns reddish over years — and expensive | Arrives closer to finished |
| Well-made | Very dark red, leaf still pliable | Earthy, like clean soil |
Roy is precise about the vocabulary. In tea, he notes, people say fermentation when they usually mean oxidation. Pu-erh is the exception: it really is fermentation, with water added to encourage bacteria.
An over-fermented Pu-erh pours almost like charcoal, then goes pale and flavorless by the next steeping. A good one should taste earthy, almost like clean soil — never mouldy or powdery like mildew. And he is blunt about the trade: he could produce mould in a week. Some sellers doctor tea to taste older than it is.
Forty Tons and a Bare Roof
Roy ages more than forty tons of Pu-erh at a time, buying every year — and he deliberately leaves the insulation off his warehouse roof.
The logic is local. His part of California has low humidity but real temperature swing, and Pu-erh wants that movement. A sealed, climate-controlled room would hold the tea still. Roy wants it breathing.
The raw material earns the patience. In Yunnan — the southern clouds — the oldest living tea tree is over 1,800 years old, protected, and you can still walk up and touch it. Several-hundred-year-old trees abound, and pickers still climb them.
The processing is different too. Yunnan’s final drying is by sun, not forced heat, so the leaf keeps more moisture and the bacteria inside survive. That is what makes the aging possible — and what makes Roy’s job a matter of deciding when to let it mould again and when not to.
A 1989 Cake at $2,000
Here is the arithmetic of aged Pu-erh, from a man who has lived every line of it.
| The tea | 1989 Pu-erh cakes, sold to a friend in China |
| Standard cake weight | 357 grams — slightly less than a pound |
| What Roy paid | About $4 per kilo, years earlier |
| What he sold them for | $2,000 each |
| What his buyer resold at | Close to 100,000 yuan |
| Why | Every cake broken open is one less in the world |
Roy treats it like an antique: there is no set price, and for someone who loves it and can afford it, the number almost stops mattering.
His first cardinal rule when buying is not about money at all.
“Stop telling me stories. I don’t wanna hear the story. I just want to taste the tea for what it is.”
Listen to your heart, not the story. Decide whether you and the tea like each other. If the price works, buy it and walk away — and never go back to check what anyone else paid.
Your First Hello With the Tea
At Chinese tea tastings, Roy teaches a small ritual. Pour water in, rinse the leaf, and before anything else — smell it.
“That’s your first hello between you and the tea,” he tells them.
That fragrance, he says, tells you everything: where it comes from, how old it is, how it was produced, which region — and how you will be rewarded if you treat it one way or another. It is giving you all the answers, in a language you do not usually speak.
He compares it to wine, then draws the line that matters. With wine, what is done is done in the bottle; you control temperature, glass, and pairing. With tea, your participation determines the outcome — water, temperature, quantity, how you place the leaf, how you pour, how long, and what cup you finally drink from.
And he compares it to painting: nobody should tell you to use a four-by-four canvas, three colors, and forty-five strokes. You cannot make art that way.
The Day He Burned His Hand in the Wok
Several years into his career as a professional tea merchant, Roy watched a girl pan-firing Dragon Well for him. He thought he knew a great deal by then. He gave her directions. Finally he said it: “Move aside, let me do it.”
He had never done it.
Within three seconds he burned his hand — half his palm completely blistered. Twenty people were watching, so he finished the batch anyway, did a terrible job, then stood up slowly and suggested she take over. He went to the wall and pressed his hand against the window to cool it while everyone politely pretended not to see.
The girl looked about fifteen. What struck him afterward was not his own burn but the intricacy of every movement she made without thinking — reacting to what the tea was telling her, changing technique as the leaves shrank.
Six or seven generations of her family had done nothing else. As Roy puts it, she had more tea flowing through her blood than he ever would.
It is why his production notes are so granular. Your rolling is not enough — if you do not break the cellular structure, the flavors never release, and the oxidation will not happen correctly.
The Wrong Staircase
The best story Roy tells is about a bathroom.
He was recovering from a bad car accident, unable to work for nearly six months, when a friend he had not seen in years called him to dinner. They drove into Chinatown and could not find parking anywhere. Roy said: wherever we park, we eat at the closest restaurant.
Seconds later a large space opened up. Across the street was a vegetarian restaurant.
Two things Roy did not know that night. That the Chinese calendar date was the fifteenth day of the first month — the Lantern Festival, when Taoist temples perform the Star Praising Ceremony for the first time each year. And that it was, by that calendar, his own birthday. He also did not know it is customary to eat vegetarian on your birthday, because that is the day you were given life, so you take none.
Halfway through the meal he went looking for the bathroom and climbed the stairs. The second floor was a Taoist temple.
He forgot the bathroom. The sounds were too fascinating. He stayed and watched the Star Praising Ceremony — the Taoist belief that everyone belongs to a star system, and that aligning yourself with that energy brings good fortune.
The priests asked him back. He ended up living with them for two years, learning scriptures, incantations, and talismans from books two inches thick — a man with a sixth-grade education who had not read Chinese in decades. He did it in a little over a year. Nobody, they told him, had ever done that.
“If that’s not destiny, I don’t know what is.”
For roughly ten years he performed the Star Praising Ceremony each birthday — for himself, and for everybody.
Be Like Water, Be Like Tea
Ask Roy for the one thing tea taught him and he reaches for Bruce Lee.
He reaches for the famous thing Bruce Lee said — be like water — and extends it one step further. Asked at the very end of the conversation for the single thing tea taught him, he goes straight back to it.
“Be like water, be like tea. I think it says all.”
— Roy Fong
Tea is water, he adds. It could be anything you want. And there is a level of tea for every human being.
That last point is not decorative. Roy has fired three people in his working life, and only one in tea: an employee who made customers feel small for asking for Earl Gray. Nobody, he told the man, is beneath you or above you. When the warning did not take, he let him go — something he describes as genuinely difficult, because confrontation carries a loss of face.
The Taoism is not separate from the tea. Tai Chi taught him energy, movement, position, and balance, and he puts all of it into the tea he makes. That, he believes, is what made him a different kind of tea person.
“Every success I have in life, it’s because of tea. Until I found tea, I was just floundering.”
— Roy Fong
Tea gave him a sense of purpose, he says, and self-respect. It took him to places he never thought possible, and introduced him to people he would never otherwise have met — and sometimes, he adds, you even get paid for it.
Full Transcript
Read the Full Transcript
Introduction
00:00:09 Christy Hui:
I want to first welcome our listeners to the show, and I have the pleasure and the privilege to speak with Roy Fong, a tea master in San Francisco. And I wanted to share a cup of tea with Roy and s- and hear some amazing tea stories. Roy and I, I like to think, share two common characteristics, one of which is that we both celebrate Chinese New Year, which is coming up, the Year of the Dragon.
And, so, there’s 1.5 billion of us in Ch- Chinese living around the world, so we’re not so unique, but this is a fantastic holiday, and you and I can talk more about that because tea also started as a southerner’s drink in China. And we are both Cantonese. Guangdong ren, right? Right. So I had the pleasure when I first meet you to speak…
Pardon me.
See, that’s what you get for not having a sip first. Exactly. Always take your time. So I had… S- it was such an amazing experience speaking with you in Cantonese that it puts me back to the r- roots. So thank you, Roy, for coming onto the show. So first I’d like to have you do me the honor of introducing yourself to the audience.
Oh, thank you so much. So first of all, it’s, Imperial Tea Court- Oh, yes… in San Francisco. Thank you. So that is the cue for you to repeat your name, Imperial-… Tea Court in San Francisco. I’m glad, I’m glad I’m not the only one who has senior moments. Thank you. I am drinking Pu-erh tea, so you’ll talk about that.
There you go. There you go.
Roy’s Background & Imperial Tea Court
00:01:59 Roy Fong:
So, I’m Roy Fong from Imperial Tea Court. I have the privilege to be in the tea business for a little while now. I have been importing tea from China since the mid-1980s. I know some of you listening are probably not that old, not as old as the tea that I imported. And I opened the first Imperial Tea Court in San Francisco in 1993, and, so we are approaching 30 years in the retail business.
What got us going into the retail high-end tea business was that, when I first started importing tea, I was the West Coast distributor for the Yunnan Tea Import Export Corporation. So I, started close to my root, being Hong Kong someone who was born in Hong Kong, where Pu-erh tea us Cantonese call bo lei, reigns supreme.
Doesn’t matter if you’re rich, poor or destitute, Pu-erh tea is like a lifeblood. You know? It’s almost like air you breathe. No matter who you are with, Pu-erh tea is served. so back when I was a kid, even poor people have access to good, somewhat aged Pu-erh. We all know Pu-erh tea was expensive even when I was a kid, but you can drink that, even back then.
Now, I haven’t been a kid for a long time, So, when I immigrated to the US at the age of 13 I didn’t speak any, speak any English. I… I was 4’11”. And 90 pounds. I didn’t grow too much more than 4’11”, but you know, I did grow a lot sideways now. I’m significantly over 90 pounds. and having to learn English and trying to dive into the American culture everything was I tried to be as American as possible, without anybody telling me that.
And then everything at home is far away from my thought. But when I, when I become 21, something flip a switch in my head and I decided to go back to Hong Kong for the first time. Of course, I had to be 21 at that time before I could afford to go back to Hong Kong. So long story short, I spent almost a month in Hong Kong, spent all my lifetime saving, that short lifetime, and I discovered tea on that visit in Hong Kong.
I was walking in a district where old tea shops and antique and, old, seafood, places like that. That’s very, if you’re from there, you know what I mean, Hong Kong, people cherishes, that kind of thing. So I was wandering the streets and all of a sudden my nose caught this undescribable fragrance.
I literally followed my nose into a tea shop where I found, the owner of the tea shop doing the final roasting of his Tieguanyin oolong. I made friend with him. I spent the rest of my vacation going there every day practically becoming part of the, shop there. When upon returning to the US, I threw all my clothes away and fill in a full two suitcases of tea bag of teas, not tea bags, sorry.
And I, when I return home, I was very anxious to show off all the tea I acquired and, and not knowing that this is eventually to become, my life. So I become a very pretty serious tea drinker, but nothing more. And then, in 1991, a person from China came to US to visit. We were doing import/exporting business at that time.
And she said, “I really like to work with you. What can we do together?” And I said, I’ve always wanted to do a real tea shop.” And, with her help, we were able to bring one 40-foot container of material and six workmen from Ch- from China To build our first original Imperial Tea Court on the out- right on the edge of Chinatown.
S- I don’t know what hit me. I was brave enough to sign a 15-year lease with owner. And, after we b- we finished building the tea shop, I’ve never had any retail experience. I’ve never done anything similar to that. And, not realizing, working with a group of workmen from China who has a total different idea of what work is and what collaboration is and what money really mean.
It took two years to build a tea shop. We have to send them home and, hire another crew here to finish the job, and it was my father, who was a contractor, came out of retirement to help me to finish our shop. I was destitute after the shop closed. I had to pay my partner off. And, the six workmen who came turn out to be leaders in their company.
They hadn’t done a damn work for years. And, so they came. The first thing they say was, “How many helper are you gonna hire me, for me?” And I said, “But it’s 1,000 square foot. There’s six, six of you.” And they said, “Well, yeah, but we supervise. We don’t work.” Anyway, so from there I had to make things work pretty quickly.
And,
Opening the Shop
00:08:00 Roy Fong:
we opened officially on July 4th, 1993. The reason for July 4th was not only for patriotism, but I know all my friends have that day off. They better come and support me. So the day- Put customers coming in. Right. The day, like a week before opening, I flew to Hong Kong with $200 in my pocket, one Visa card, and no more money.
So I went to a, wholesaler I know- Spoke to them and said, “Look, I don’t have any money now. I’d like to buy some tea from you, but I would like you to give me some time to pay.” And then they said, “Okay.” I was a little shocked, but, And then they were shocked after they agreed, and I’d give the list of tea I like to have.
That how much I demanded, for some young kid coming here telling my old 60-year-old roaster, tea roasting master how he’s not, firing the Te Guanyin correctly. So I didn’t make any friends, but they… I think they, they probably just wanna get rid of me. So they gave me two cases of tea and, it’s…
At that time, it’s only total… It’s- I said only, but at that time it was a pretty big amount for me. the two cases is about $600 to $700. So I flew in, flew home, with my ticket arriving on July 2nd. J- July 2nd, and then go- well, July 3rd, actually, the day before. So I arrive with United Airlines and early in the morning on July 3rd, and, waited at the car- luggage belt until everybody else is gone.
I don’t see my two cases. So I went to United Airlines still, ha- full of hope. And, after, s- about 10 minutes, they looked at me and said, “Mr. Fong, I’m sorry to inform you your two- your luggages are in Tokyo.” But I said, “But I’m opening tomorrow.” So anyway, my wife was waiting to pick me up outside, and two hours later I walk out of the terminal almost in tears.
And then I just don’t know what to do. Tomorrow 50 people is coming, So we went home. I spent the rest of the day and the night sleepless, don’t know what to do. At that time there’s no cell phone, there’s no pager. I’m w- thinking how am I gonna… I’m gonna wake up tomorrow and tell everybody not to come.
I’m gonna have to figure that out. W- what a story, Roy. And so how do… What happens next? The, so I didn’t sleep all night, and, at s- 6:30 AM in the morning, where I’m still thinking, “How am I gonna tell the 50 people I badger into coming for my opening?”
United Airline called me and said, “Mr. Fung, we got your packages. Where should we deliver it?” I was floored. So they delivered the packages by 8:00. I was able to open with, with tea that I just got in from, Hong Kong, and all my friends chipped in. I did, like, $300 of business that day. So I said to my wife, “Okay, the two- you and me work for free, and, the rent’s 1,000 and change.
We could do this,” So we opened officially from that day. Next day, my wife and I came in and opened this door waiting for customer, and, waited half a day. Nobody came in. Then an old lady come in slowly, reluctantly, and looked at s- I swear, every single item we have dis- in display in the store.
And then she wagged her finger at me and said, “Do you know how, how much they’re selling these dan- dangs in Chinatown? You’re crazy.” “You’re my son, I’d kill you.” So anyway, I thought, “All right. One lady, one old lady. What the hell?” It was not until almost three months later we finally had our first $100 day, and, I was so ecstatic.
I took my wife out to dinner and spent that $100 in, in, like, two blinks of the eyes. And then after that, something miraculously happened. The San Francisco Chronicle showed up and said, “You are doing something really unique. We’d like to do a, a a, a little, interview with you and maybe write about you.”
And she said, “Maybe.” No, but I, I was, very happy, obviously. And so she interviewed me. We had tea. She spent, like, over two hours drinking tea with me, and then she left, and I thought that was it. A week later a full-page story about us happened in the San Francisco Chronicle food page. And then ever since then, we started to climb the ladder a little bit- And then eventually I was, I had articles in The New York Time and the Gourmet Magazine, Bon Appétit,
the first 10 years or so of our business, it was pretty amazing. People come from all over the world to that little shop to talk tea, to just gleam a little bit of the real Chinese tea culture. Well, at least I like to consider it real. And, a group of old men came in a- shortly after the article, and they said, “We’ve been looking for a place like this to bring our songbirds.”
So I said, “Come on in.” So they, every Saturday a group of old men, Chinese old men, bring their caged birds, and they hang it up on the lattice work we have on the store. And, they take up one table, they laugh, they drink tea, they argue they lie to each other just like all old men do. So it was wonderful, and it,
and this really unique tea culture have started. And I like to claim that we’re probably the only authentic tea shop, Chinese tea shop- in the US at the time. Now, obviously other people have sold tea before me. the Chinese obviously did a lot of tea business before me, but the Chinese tea culture, like tea shops, where the tea, the proprietors supposedly have something to do with every tea that they procure.
so we, we start making our m- signature Monkey Pick tea, from that first day I, I spent in Hong Kong. And, we roast our own Monkey Pick tea when it get, our own oolongs here until today. We did a lot of l- a lot of things that little people have no business doing. like we…
I would go to China to produce the, to supervise the production our, of our Lotus Spot Dragon Well. we, and we never stopped that until recently. So I think I, I could take up the rest of the hour if I wanted to, but- This is why-… that’s the long story short. That’s how we started. Well, thank you, Roy. This is why I love Tea Masters and talking with my fellow tea people, because y- I only asked you one question.
And look at… So thank you for that fascinating tea branch. It… Your story is like the tea branches, and it wraps around and I think that’s why I love tea so much, because everyone have their mystical beginning, and it’s like, y- you were guided by tea herself-… the destiny. And you… I have so many questions for you just because of that story.
One, if I didn’t, if I hear correctly, it was Pu-erh tea that got you first started. But it was Tieguanyin, which is a famous oolong tea- Right… that got you hooked. Am I correct? Bo- in both counts. I think Pu-erh tea is in my blood, being- Mm. That’s right… born and grow up in Hong Kong. Yes. I…
A lot of people always ask me what your favorite tea is, and I would say Pu-erh, and they say, “Why?” And, I had this kind of soul search. I love Tieguanyin, especially the old traditional Tieguanyin where you, the tea is actually oxidized to at least 30% and a good roast of the tea where- It w- just the roasting of the tea make or break the tea, but also show technique beyond people’s comprehension.
So I have to think why, and the, the simple reason is whenever I have to make a decision on what tea do I w- want to drink, or sometime I don’t even realize I’m making a decision, it’s always Pu-erh. Because I think that’s… W- I grew up with that stuff. I drank that more than water when I was young. that’s w- what we always drink when people show up in the house.
I… being from Hong Kong I just don’t know any better. So- I drink… Yeah. The, I think that I love Pu-erh now. And it w- it was funny because when I was a kid, I grew up watching my father drinking his Gong Fu Cha. Yeah. And one time, he was drinking really, really dark tea and I tasted it, and I’m like, “Whoa, this is like medicine.”
And I said, “What is it?” He says, “Oh, it’s Pu-erh.” Mm. And it was like, ooh. It… but I was a girl, young girl then. It was like, oh, oh, I, this is old man tea. So I always related Pu-erh as a p- a o- old, old man tea. But until recently, because of the amazing health benefits and tasting Pu-erh at your events- Ah That was brilliant.
But I love, love to hear more about your Pu-erh. yes, I think in Hong Kong, every Chinese restaurant that you go to, Sunday, dim sum, right? And it’s like, “Okay, bo lei ta.” there’s Pu-erh and there’s Pu-erh, So- So, I like how you say that Pu-erh is also for, cuts across all demographics.
Right. The poor people use Pu-erh, and there’s the Pu-erh. I tell you, some, some of us were lucky enough to choose tea. Those of us who are extraordinarily lucky, tea chose you. Mm-hmm. So I think I’m one of the extraordinary lucky person where tea chose me. I would encourage you guys to read my book.
It’s not unfortunately available anywhere else except in my website, because I basically wrote that book to just get it off my chest. One of the most asked question I get is, “Why are you writing a book?” So this is my s- my revised version. This is only the second book. Okay. In it, it tells you the story about how I become this crazed tea person that I am today.
Almost shameful. What, what is the title of your book? The Great Teas of China. Oh, okay. Yeah, so- It’s available on your website. What is your website? Oh, we’ll provide that. Im- imperialtea.com. Okay. Oh, you- Yeah… skipped the chords. Okay. Imperialtea.com. Uh. Yeah. Okay. Just Imperial Tea. Okay. It, it’s about the tea, not about me.
I will definitely get a copy. I did not know that. Thank you for sharing that, by the way, Roy. Thank you. So in terms of Pu-erh I think we were talk, discussing, the difference in Pu-erh. So you could go to dim sum restaurant where they serve you so-called Pu-erh that, you just hope that it’s not too bad, and sometimes they don’t even, they don’t even clean the pot they used previously.
So you could have other tea like jasmine and what else it tastes. And there’s Pu-erh tea that’s worth thousands of dollars a pound, i’ve sold aged Pu-erh back to China for significant amount of money. in the book also, it, it, we only have an hour, so we… so the, the short story sh- about Pu-erh tea is that there’s a-
Understanding Pu-erh Production
00:20:44 Roy Fong:
There’s two first main two style, the sheng style and the shou style.
The sheng style is Pu-erh tea that’s from green tea and oxidized with air, slowly aged, and hopefully it’ll event- eventually turn reddish. And, when it turn red, then it’s… become very expensive. And there’s the other version where there’s like a green tea, made with green tea, like a green tea but water’s added to the tea to, to encourage fermentation.
So in tea terms, we always say fermentation, but what we- people really mean is oxidization, not fermentation. But Pu-erh tea is fermentation, where you add water, you… to encourage bacteria growth, and it changes into, like, a mold. And then the mold changes the… attacks the tea leaf and change the dynamics inside.
And then after it dry off, some of the bacteria is still dormant in the tea. And then Pu-erh tea, the… This type of Pu-erh tea is called shou. in Can- Cantonese, it’s “”sou””. It is a li- Ripe. Yeah, ripe Pu-erh. Ripe. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And some people, quote-unquote, say, “”cooked””. “”Cooked””, yeah. Yeah. I don’t like that word. It had nothing to do with it.
Me too. So, “”sou”” is more correct. So- Yes… this… So people, collectors like us, we look at this type of Pu-erh, well, all Pu-erh in general, as a living being. Mm. So you interact with a living being, you have to learn the likes and dislike of the other person if you wanna be friends. in our bo- in my book again, it explain a little bit about how to encourage bacteria growth at the appropriate time, and discourage it at appropriate time.
So a Pu-erh that’s very old already, you don’t want bacteria grow again because the bacteria has to feed on something. So over-fermented Pu-erh turns really dark. You… When you brew the tea, it almost look like charcoal, and it become very light in color. The cup become very light in color, and there’s no flavor.
And then, you… the next sipping, there’ll be nothing. Well-aged Pu-erh is very dark red, and at least you try to get it to be very dark red, and the leaf is still pliable, and that is not… does not turn black. So black sou Pu-erh and sheng Pu-erh is two different animal, although they are- the same. I have some Pu-erh that’s…
Now, one of the advantages we have here in the US, or at least in my part of the US, is that we don’t have high humidity here. But we do have fluctuation of temperature. So I w- I deliberately do not put, insulation on the roof of my warehouse. So the younger- So let me pause for a second, Roy. So you have your own warehouse, and you are fermented or fermenting or oxidizing- I’m-
producing- I’m aging… your Pu-erh. I’m aging- Wow… my Pu-erh. Okay. you’re looking at someone that had over 40 tons of Pu-erh all the time. I buy every year. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Do you actually travel to Yunnan? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I, I- Oh… I have great friends there, uh, if… When we have time, I’ll tell you the story of my first visit to Yunnan.
Please do. Yeah. Because Roy coming up is a… I don’t know if you heard of this book called The Tea Girl from Hummingbird Lane- I believe so, yeah… by Lisa See. In fact, I’m doing a tea book club, and we are- Ah… going to share our thoughts- Right… on this book, and I love the story. And it’s featuring Pu-erh prominently.
And, I recentl- I, I started to learn about Yunnan Pu-erh tea after I met you, and I was just- Yeah… fascinated by it. I didn’t even know- Right… that a type of Pu-erh tea is actually- Yeah… caffeine-free. Oh. So yeah, they’re, they’re just so fascinating, a tea type by itself, ‘Cause you and I, we Chinese know that there are six tr- traditional Chinese tea type, and Pu-erh tea is a…
By itself, it’s a tea type- Yeah… but it’s a world onto itself. Right. And so yes, I love, I’d love for you to share more about your Pu-erh tea aging- Yeah… and production. For those of you who have never been to Yunnan, that is a magical place, where even today, the oldest living tea tree is over 1,800 years old.
You could still walk up to it, and look at it, and touch it. It’s, is a protected, sort of local treasure. Butit… There’s no place else on earth where you’ll find live tea tree that’s in such abundance. And several year, hundred-year-old tea trees a- abounds, And people pick tea st- from them still the way, old way.
They climb up to the tree, and they pick tea. Although the popularity and value of Pu-erh tea- I believe harms the quality and the sort of tradition of how it always been produced. Yunnan back in… The Yunnan means the s- the southern clouds. It so insinuate that it’s a very high area where you reach the, for the cloud.
and it’s such a unique place where there’s a high altitude area, but it’s almost like a valley. So people find prehistoric plants there that they still can name. They still find things there. The, this is probably the only pla- well, this is the only place in China where you still find wild elephants, so it’s, it’s a tremendous place and the, the way that this tea is produced is not really a lot of technic- techni- techniques required. Like, making a great Dragon Well needs great techniques fro- from picking to pan firing to re-firing, to storage, to brewing. Every one of those steps are important. The, if the mas- tea master make a great tea, you and I could totally screw that up by, putting half a cup of tea leaf and put some boiling water in it.
It’ll be so bitter it’ll throw you out the window. But with Pu-erh tea, it’s almost all natural. So you don’t even worry about just the tips and this and that. It’s wild, so the local minority groups pick them and basically sun dry them in the ancient time. this is a major difference between other tea production and Yunnan Pu-erh tea production.
The final drying is not by force heat, it’s by sun dry. So sun dry is not as intense as or as close as direct fire, so the bacteria that’s within the leaf can continue to live, and it retains a little bit higher- moisture content. Because it’s a big leaf, it has a lot of moisture, and sun drying doesn’t completely bake it out, so the bacteria a- is able to, to survive, and the added moisture sometime let it help it we mold.
So that’s why the, where I come in, where do you let it we mold or not we mold at all? So that’s where the so-called store your tea in the cave idea come in, because in the cave it’s a lot of humidity and moisture and the mo- tea will mold again and get that unique earthiness. But there is a point of too much molding.
And also people, misconception is molding and that moldy taste means it’s old. I could produce mold for you in a week, And that’s how some of them make I don’t wanna say fake, but, they, they doctor the tea to make it taste older. A good well-fermented Pu-erh should taste earthy, almost like clean soil, but not moldy and powdery like mildew.
So you need to understand that. And there are some teas that will benefit from another mold, another fermentation, because the first fermentation it went through might not be enough. So that accelerate that aging and add more bacteria, but if you’re not careful, that bacteria will go rampant and the tea be no good.
So- It’s a balance. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So even though it’s not a lot of technique, technical… So if you’ve been to Yunnan and you’ve been to, say, Hangzhou, where the Dragon Well is produced-… and you look at the cuisine and look at the people, you look… Y- th- they’re vastly different. Not that one is more beautiful than the other.
The style is so different, and that’s why- Mm… the tea is so different. So I, I used to take people to China on a tea and culinary culture tour. So the first thing I asked them to do is when you get off the plane, start looking around you and record everything in your head. How the people look, how they sound, how the foliage look like, how the leaf look like.
And they’ll… eventually, they’ll discover from Hangzhou, the leaves are lighter green, smaller leaves on the tree, and people are more delicate. They’re, they’re- Delicate, yeah… the food is more sweeter- Mm… less intense. As you go to south, to Fujian, to Yunnan, everything is dark green. The leaves are bigger. And, the f- the food become more simpler, but more intense in flavor.
Mm-hmm. When you go to Yunnan, it’s spicy and strong and- Mm… just like the land. Yes. It matches the, the land produces, and it’s like that’s why we talk about the terroir, just like in France. Right. Yeah. Right? And wine. Um, and you drink local wine, and it matches with the local cuisine. Um, so I love that when I was tasting Pu-erh tea with you in your special tea tasting, it really opened my eyes about the different types of Pu-erh that, like you said, there’s Pu-erh, and there’s Pu-erh, and there’s Pu-erh, right?
And how, given how big really Pu-erh has been growing, it’s, it’s a cult. There’s a cult-like following. expensive Pu-erh tea can go as high as what? So just for an ex- for ex- example, I sold some 1989 Menghai tea cakes to China to a good friend of mine for $2,000 per piece.
Per cake? One cake. Per cake, yeah. Mm-hmm. So one cake is 357 gram, slightly less than a pound. So I thought I did pretty well. I only paid $4 a kilo when I bought it years ago. But he turns around and sell it for almost 10… almost 100,000 yuan. So divided by seven, significantly more than 2,000.
So this is a little bit like antique. Mm-hmm. There’s no set price. Sure. If you want… uh, for those who like it and appreciate it and can afford it, the, the price almost doesn’t matter. Mm-hmm. Because every time you break down one of them, there’s one of… one less in the world. very seldom people have tea that are that old really.
So one of my first r- cardinal rule in purchasing pu- or even antique. I’m not a big antique guy, but I love them. It’s, first, rule number one, stop telling me stories. I don’t wanna hear the story. I just want to taste the tea for what it is. And from my own understanding of how the tea and I communicates, how do I like them, how seem like they like me back and I…
If the price is acceptable to me, I don’t really care what other people buy it for. I’m- I buy and I walk away. I don’t ever go back and double-check, And, and I’m happy with it that way. And then from that point on, it’s me and that tea. So that’s my only w- one cardinal rule is don’t listen to stories.
listen to your heart and, let the chips fall where they may. Don’t do things that you can’t afford, like obviously, like your mom always tell you. Don’t be crazy and buy things you shouldn’t. Like, if, if, if it’s something you have no idea about, even though you like it, i- it’s a big number, you probably shouldn’t do it, unless you’re one of those who could afford to do.
I don’t know, you’re s- big basketball player or something. If you make 100 million, somebody wants 100,000 from you, you probably think it’s some change. But those of us who have to fight to, to make $100, we- we’re pretty careful with our money. We don’t let our vanity or a story confuse us, because we’re confused enough as it is.
Mm-hmm. So now
The Spirit of Tea
00:34:51 Roy Fong:
one of the things that you shared with me, with us during the Pu-erh tea tasting was your way of- Being one with the tea. Right. Would you like to say that? I really… It really resonated with me, Roy. Well, it’s a communication because it’s… If you look at that tea as a living being- how… what do you do when you meet someone else? You talk to them. Say hello. You communicate. Yeah. Right? So remember, when I pour water in and rinse the leaves out, I explained that as you… And the, the fragrance of the tea, I show everyone. I tell them, “That’s your first hello between you and the tea.”
That fragrance tells you everything about itself, where it come from, how old it is, how it was produced, where, which region they come from, and probably how you’re gonna be rewarded if you treat it this way or that way. It’s giving you all the answer. It’s… But it’s speaking in a different language than you usually do.
So you have to decipher that and then understand what signal you’re receiving and then act accordingly. This… So this, this connection is like making art. It’s like painting. nobody should tell you when you go paint- Every time you should use a four-by-four canvas and with three colors and only 45 strokes.
You can’t make art that way. You have to release yourself. Listen to you and listen to everything around you, in this case, including the tea and the people around you. And then you try to communicate, and you try to see what you do if you get a positive res- response, right? A non-positive rebo- response will be astringency or water tastes like water, or m- Mud
moldy, m- moldy tasting. So all these things is, It sound complicated, but it, it really isn’t, because those of you who are wine drinkers out there, we look for the same thing. If you’re a wine drinker, you look for the nose, you look for the color you look for the legs. You look for the- Mm
the depth of, of- The coat, tail. The- Yeah… the, the clarity. Everything’s the same, except you don’t get to affect the final outcome as much with wine. So what’s already done is in the bottle. When you serve it, you’re only left with what temperature you should be serving this at, what kind of glass.
Makes a huge difference. Do you pair with the correct type of food or not? But you’re not making the t- the, the wine stronger or lighter. With tea, your participation determine the final outcome of your encounter by adjusting temperature, using different tasting water using the more tea, less amount of tea- How you place the tea in your pot or in your cup, how you pour your water, how long you let it steep, how you let it steep, how you pour it out, and then finally, how do you drink it, with what kind of cup.
you have so much influence to make it so much different. And- It, it’s a dance. It’s like- Absolutely… it’s, yeah, it’s a dance, and you are speaking. This is one thing I love about talking with you, is that the language of tea that you’re speaking, and together you’re creating this dance and this…
It’s, it’s, it, and I love the fact that the Pu-erh tea is actually live, um- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you brought on so many wonderful little questions I have. And-… due to time, we’re gonna have to sep-, have another- Right… session, Roy. Right. Because I ha- I wanna ask you something. If someone listening to the podcast and they really, really wanna start drinking Pu-erh, how do they start?
What do they look for? What’s the best way to go about it? Well, there’s no better way than just trying, number one. and, again, there’s so much chatter today with internet and everybody pounding their chest to, about how good they are, which is very anti-Chinese. We always believe-
that when, when you’re good, people will find out. when you have to say you’re good, then you probably still need a little work. So- all of us are unfortunately. Right. Right. That’s true. C- yes. Yeah… we are. So the tea is one art that you’re not gonna finish in one lifetime, just I don’t care who you are.
Mm-hmm. So it’s, it’s a ongoing process. And your truth is a little different than my truth because, like for example, you come from Hunan or something, you eat very spicy food. The way you wanna enjoy your tea would be very different than someone who come from like Shanghai, you know, the, because the the culinary culture is very different.
So don’t let people force you to do things this way or that way. I I’m the anti-rules guy. I, all my life, I don’t really like to follow what people tell me, unless I understand- It the same way that the, that was told to me. So I would say listen to yourself and, again like I said, don’t listen to the stories just because of the story.
If you don’t agree, don’t be afraid to say so. And then try it. Try to get your tea from a reputable vendor. At some point you’re gonna have to develop trust with the person who provide you with the tea. And no, going directly to China to buy tea is n- not always give you the best deal.
my advice to people is when you go to Hangzhou, don’t buy Dragon Well. You go to Yunnan, don’t run into the shop and buy a bunch of Yunnan Pu-erh because the chances of you getting great Pu-erh is not as great as you think. So find somebody you can trust, preferably somebody that allow you to sample taste, and they, they’re somebody that could explain in a way you can understand, and this is just personal. If somebody said, “You make your tea this way and only this way, so many second, so many minute,” I myself have a problem with that because, again, your preference is different than my preference. I would take somebody who give me directions like that, I’ll take their advice and try it for myself, and then I’ll explore other options, see if that really work for me.
If it doesn’t, I’m not afraid to say no. It’s an individual experience with the tea, and so don’t be afraid to meet tea- and don’t be afraid-… and, and communicate. Mm-hmm. But don’t be afraid to disagree. because I’ve been in tea tastings where, I don’t wanna say w- but the, the, the person is well-known, and, so they’re describing flavors that I simply don’t believe is there.
But, obviously I wasn’t gonna stand up and say no, but, you know-… but I would… I think everybody should be respected to when they’re sharing their understanding and knowledge. Maybe you agree or not agree, that’s okay, but I don’t think direct confrontation it’s respectful. I think that’s- So I have a question.
I have a question. Yeah. How… When you’re going to, let’s say, your, one of your sourcing trip in Yunnan and trying to buy tea-… is, you are obviously tasting and communicating with tea. What other qualifications are you looking for? Well, I think the person you deal with is important, ’cause ultimately that’s a people’s business,
So you, you have to trust each other. And I gotta tell you, over 30 year of importing tea, I rarely ever have to pay ahead of time. The tea gets shipped to me, it gets into my warehouse, I pay them. I- if, if I find anything wrong, they’ll take care of me. So that’s… it tells you that there’s a a, a pretty deep trust between me and my suppliers.
Now, but also I have a fortunate advantage because in the early days I actually, in order to make better tea, I went to the g- to the fa- farm where the tea is grown, and I worked the entire harvest with them. So I know what happen when you pick the tea during rainy day, or you pick the tea in un- during good weather days.
If you pick it this, with, with… cut it with a knife, for example, or cut it with a machine, or you pick with tea, pick it with, with your hands, what the differences are. During each process, each step of the process, it affect the next step. So by knowing the entire process, I knew the finished product is lacking this or that.
So I could tell them, for example, “Your rolling process is not enough.” Because if you don’t roll it enough, you don’t break the cellular structures within the leaf, flavors do- don’t release. So you, your rolling is not enough, then you won’t develop full flavor, and oxidation won’t happen correctly. So I could tell them so they could adjust on the next day, ’cause harvests come in every day,
And you could tell when, when the tea is picked in the rainy day, it won’t taste… the flavor is a lot less. So when, in Pu-erh tea, do you also roll or knead? yeah. Yes, you have to roll. You do? Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you pan fire to cook the leaf, so to stop the rawness. But also you cook through the leaf so it stops any ox- further oxidation.
And then it also make it soft and pliable. That allow you to roll it. If you don’t cook through it and you roll it, you break the leaf. So if you overcook it, you- Or processed- um- Sorry, go ahead. You- Go ahead. Yeah… if you overcook the, if you overcook the leaves- If you overcook the leaf, it, it’ll burn.
It tastes burnt, and it’ll t- be too dry. You can’t roll it. So it’s just, you mi- you miss that, your rolling won’t be correct. So- Yeah… and then the rolling has to be done intermittently. That means you can’t roll it for three hours, ’cause you’ll make it, you break it off. So you roll it when it… The rolling create heat.
When it’s too hot, you have to stop. You have to break the ball the leaves apart, let it cool off, and roll again. Mm. So this is all by eyes. They have not discovered a computer better than the one you got between your ears. it’s by, by, by eye, by touch, by smell. That’s how we do it.
So if- What’s your favorite part of the process, Boy? my favorite part is when they’re done, I get to drink it. Speaking as a true tea enthusiast. So- Yes… I remember the first time I tried to make Dragon Well. Now, I’ve, this is several year after I’d becomea real, a, a professional tea merchant.
So I was there, and I thought I knew a lot about this already, and I saw this little girl pan firing the tea for me. So I was telling her this and that and giving direction. And finally, I told her, “Move aside. Let me do it.” Because I, although I never done it, I just thought I, it doesn’t look so hard,
So I, I said, “Move aside. Let me do it.” She lo- she, she looks like 15, so I, I sat down there. Within three second, I burned my hand, and my right, right palm, half of it is completely blistered. But everybody, like 20 people, is watching me, so I had to finish it. So I finish it, and this, I did a terrible job, and my hand is completely burned, so I slowly stood up and I said, “Oh, maybe you should finish.”
And then I walk against the wall and try to put my hand on the window to try to cool it off. Oh. And everybody’s so politely c- pretend not to see that, So that’s really- That giant wok. That giant wok that you use- Yeah, yeah… your hand to, like, do this, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God.
That- You got to press hard on the wok. The only thing keeping you, your hand from being cooked are those shrinking tea leaves. And they shrink, like, fast. And that wok is hot. It can get up to 420 degrees- Oh, yeah. It’s o- it’s 420 degrees Celsius… Fahrenheit. Yes. S- yes. Yeah. so-… that gave me renewed respect for the people who did that.
I just realized that moment, that girl has more tea running through her blood than I ever will be. Because it, for s- maybe six or seven generation, that’s all they did. They- Mm-hmm… they come out of the womb knowing how to do this stuff, And then after I burned my hand, and I looked, and I realized the intricacy of every single movement she’s doing without thinking, because she’s reacting to what the tea’s telling them.
if it’s shrinking, you, you use a different technique so you don’t burn your hand, but you gotta keep the tea moving all the time so it doesn’t get burned. It’s a real art. So I think one of… To really honestly answer your question, just watching the art happen live is my biggest thr- thrill, and every step of the way is a different thrill.
I remember making oolong tea in Taiwan with my friend. I went there at s- after dinner, about 9:00, so the teas are being rolled, and y- you work all the way through t- until the next morning. So every step of the production, after they finish pan firing, I’ll grab a handful, and we’ll go back in the office.
We’ll cup that tea when it’s pan firing. So pan, before it’s completely done, is very bitter, and you could taste the difference as the each production go on. The beginning of the, the meth- the rolling to the end of the rolling is a completely different tea. So that is… I think I s- even mentioned that in my book.
That’s the biggest tea lesson in my life. Understanding each production tech- technique and step, and how it affects the flavor. The only way you could tell is that you drink it on each step. So I did that through the night, and then the next morning I went through picking with them, and I came out of that farm a, a new person
It’s very intense and a laborious process, and also sequential. Yeah. Like you said, you can’t miss a step, and when one step is finished, and you gotta go to the next step. And it’s, when I was in Wuyishan witness- having the tea master talk about their Wu Long tea making-… process, it was a two-week intensive.
Each batch, and it was like night and day, 24/7, like you said. Right. It- it’s not something… a lot of people make tea because they need to make a living. Mm. Only a few people are very good at what they do, and they make it ’cause they can’t help it. You just love it, that’s not enough.
You just can’t help yourself. Mm-hmm. No one can pay you to make excellent tea. Only you can make excellent tea, and you- you’re doing it not e- even by choice. You just can’t help it. Y- yeah, I, I, I have to agree with you in so much in that way that what I talk about after my journey of making the tea movie and watching the tea masters, and I’m so grateful to be talking with you because you remind me, and you reminded me of that journey that I went through, that it was a tea spirit.
It’s to be… To make good tea, you have to be a good person, that moral character, and be one with tea because you’re learning from each other. You’re communicating. And this tea master making ele- sh- he’s an 11th generation of Oolong tea master, and he’s puts it this way. He said, “Tea making is a limitless art,” which hearing from you is the same message, isn’t it, Roy?
Yeah. There’s, the key cultures we know today came from millions and millions and millions of people’s wisdom in combination and thousand years, thousands of years of progression to make it what it is. So if you and I are lucky enough to live a healthy 100 years, it’s just a speck of time in terms of history.
So it’s just not enough t- time to learn everything. That’s not possible. And it… You could consider it an art. Which art is you could finish learning? It is an art because it’s unending. You learn from yourself. You learn from others. You learn from just be, So, I, I just, I, I just can’t be more grateful than, than I am today because of tea.
Every success I have in life, it’s because of tea. Until I found tea, I was just floundering. I, and tea give me a sense of purpose. I’ve… Give me self-respect. It, take me to places I never thought possible. I meet great people like you and others and, and sometime you even get paid for it.
I don’t know what else do you want in life, I lost your voice Oh, yeah, there I am. I was too busy drinking tea. So Roy, what is the… What is an… If you can put the tea spirit into one sentence, what would that be? In one sentence, tea spirit. Uh-huh. And you said so many wonderful things- Right… like tea changed your life and how, how tea- I think- Uh-huh
I think for me, it’s tea is life. If you just live your life like you treat your tea, you are probably gonna be okay
It will change and, the famous wa- thing that Bruce Lee say, “Be like water.” Yes. Be like tea. Yes. Be like tea. Tea is water. It could be anything you want. And there’s a level of tea for every human being. It doesn’t… Nobody should belit- belittle anyone who wants Nook tea bag or drink Earl Grey tea or whatever, because that’s the level that suit them.
Nobody should be uppity and in fa- in fact, I fired… The only time in my life I fire someone, I fired three people in my whole life. I’m in business since I’m 21 year old. They force me. Okay? The only person I ever fire in tea was this person who give people a bad face when they come in asking for Earl Grey, and I walk him aside and I said, “Listen, you can’t do that.
I don’t like that. if you think they’re beneath you, then maybe you should find another job. I, I… Nobody’s beneath you or above you. We, we should be respectful to others for their choices, but also for what they prefer. Who the hell are you?” So he didn’t really took that warning seriously, and I had to fire him You know, I’ve never done that to any…
we’re, we’re Chinese. You know how it is. We, we find- Yes… having to confront someone to tell them they’re not doing their job, it’s very difficult to us. Yes. Yes. Because we’re imagining somebody doing that to us. That’s such a huge loss of face. Mm-hmm. so you’re supposed to understand it’s really time for you to exit so that we could avoid, avoid having to confront each other.
Yeah. But this is not very American. Americans want you to come out. Well, you don’t like it, why didn’t you tell me? So I’m practically born here, but I still have this problem. I came here when I was 13. I’m 68 now.
I’ve been here for a long time, but I still have difficulty, being a quote, unquote American sometimes. Being a tea person also I find that tea brings out harmony with each other, and that’s why I always say, tea is a cup of humanity, and you nailed it in your stories just confirms all that.
After my making the tea film- I have so much more respect for tea. Absolutely. And it teaches us how to be better humans, in my opinion.
Better people. I c- yeah, I certainly have become a better human being, at least in my opinion. Sometimes my wife don’t actually agree, but- Ask your wife that, yes.
Yeah. That’s great. But I certainly, I think… i, I came from Hong Kong at 13. When I went back to China to Hong Kong at 21, I barely can read a newspaper anymore. I only have a sixth grade education in Hong Kong, and I wasn’t a very good student. I remember when they say, “Oh, we’re applying to bring you guys out to the US,” I go, “Oh, no more school.”
Book that year off. So, because of tea, certainly because of tea, I am a lot more cultured in terms of Chinese. I’ve- I probably, I not only can read a newspaper, I even read poetry. It’s shocking. Oh, while you’re sipping your tea and you’re, like, reciting poetry? But there’s so many poetry about tea.
Oh, that’s right. Oh, right. I, I quoted three of them in my book. Can you please recite for our audience? And I love to hear you s- recite your favorite tea poem. there’s a poem- Can you do that?… a- about W- oolong tea. Okay. it’s… The, the final sentence is. That
means, “Everybody show off their aged tea from last year.” And this is surprisingly not about Pu-erh. Mm. It’s about the place you came from. Yeah. That you, you make your film. It’s about, uh- Wuyi tea… it’s about Wuyi tea. Yeah. Because the traditional method of Wuyi tea is make the tea this year, save it until next year, and re-fire before you sell.
So it says, “”That
means the firing, ” means, the firing energy. ” means it hasn’t been removed. “Do not let it touch your lips.” Yeah. Okay. So that means freshly roast tea, don’t drink it. So, like, my standard practice is to fire two weeks prior that I sell it, and I let it cool off the, the… Almost like you’re barbecuing.
Let the meat rest, right? Sit. Yeah. Yeah. Let the meat set. Sit. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, so with roasting tea, you let the, the m- the tea set so that it could re-absorb some moisture around it so that it’s some of the toasty, fiery taste. And to Chinese, it’s not just a taste, it’s a energy. You need that to be…
We j- we- We energize the leaves… 4,000 pounds. Yeah. Then- Mm… so four… That means before the, the firing energy is gone, do not touch. So it’s in my book. Can you text me that line? That, that poem? I’d love to, uh- Yeah… I’d love to include it. That’s so great. I love… There’s 400 poems that celebrates Wuyi tea or actually in a…
So it, it’s… We Chinese has so many poems, right, about tea. It’s… She’s a major star. And Wuyi Shan is- Yeah. If you go up to Wuyi Shan, they’re halfway on the side of the mountain. Everywhere. Along- You know, you can’t help but learn. Yes. Along the river. It is so amazing- Yeah… the tea culture. I, I can encourage people to go to Wuyi Shan more.
I mean- Mm… it’s already changed so much. Not for the better, unfortunately, but- That’s, the Wuyishan is one of the 36 mor- portal to immortality for Taoists. And if you go there, you know why. Yeah. Every turn is just- The temples… not of this world beautiful. Yeah. There, there are so many temples that we shot, and we had to scale up the mountains to shoot those temples, the Taoist temples, the Buddhist temples.
Now,
Destiny, Taoism & Tea
01:00:32 Roy Fong:
I knew, you told me that earlier when we met, Roy, that you were a Taoist. Correct. Yeah. I’m the public… I’m from the Ching Chung Taoist Association of America. I’m the first, quote, unquote, “priest,” in, in America for that temple. Right. So I learned that… So I believe everything’s pr- major direction in your life is preplanned.
you could do, anything you want, whatever you want. You could change small direction, but you end up to that direction eventually. So I, I learned Tai Chi, and then I learned Buddhism. I, uh, Taoism. It, and I learned Tea, Tai Chi, and, and Taoism, in that order, and it only can happen when that period of time.
I got into a very bad car accident, and I wasn’t able to work for almost six months. So I- I don’t know you running out of time, but, w- long story short, I- We have time, yeah… a friend called me up, a friend called me up and said, “Roy, let’s go to dinner.” I said, “Okay.” I haven’t seen this guy forever. And, so he, he came to my house, picked me up.
We went to Chinatown to- for dinner, and just couldn’t find a parking space anywhere. So I told him, “Wherever we park, we just go to the z- closest restaurant.” And after I said that, within seconds, we found this huge, big parking space on Grant Avenue. We pulled in and we walk across the street, it’s a vegetarian restaurant.
And, I didn’t know at the time that it’s customary to be a vegetarian at least on your birthday, because that’s the day you get life. So you don’t take life on that day. I did not know that. Okay. So we walked into the restaurant and, I did not know that in the Chinese calendar, that was my birthday.
My birthday is the January 15 in J- Chinese calendar. In Western calendar, it’s February 26th. So I did not know that it’s January 15th, and I did not know January 15 is the first festival, first important day of the year. It’s called Yuan Xiao. This is where the, the star, the, the gods come down to, to give good fortune to people.
So I did not know that. So I went to the restaurant. We ate vegetarian. Halfway through, I needed to go to the bathroom, and I went upstairs not knowing that the second floor is the Taoist temple. I walked up-… and I forgot to go to the bathroom because the so- the sounds they’re making was so fascinating.
I… And there’s a group of people there waiting, watching. So I walk, went, and I watch, and they were performing the star praising ceremony. It traditionally, the first such ceremony is per- is, is performed in January 15, the. That’s the… So the Taoist believe that everybody belong to a star system. So your star system is bright, energetic, you will be in good fortune.
The really special people have their own stars. So praising the star and try to align yourself with positive energy is what that ceremony. And I didn’t know that. So I met the priest there and they’re, they’re a couple and- they, asked me to come back, and long story short, I ended up living with them for two years.
Because at that time, in the beginning I wasn’t working, so I’d spent a month learning. So I was a sixth grade educated person that hadn’t spoken Chinese for a long time, Wei Chinese. And I had to learn scriptures, in- incantations, and talismans that are, that are, like, two-inch-thick books. I learned that in a little over a year.
They said that nobody have ever done that, the, on top of you not being literate in Chinese. It only could happen because I lived with them for the two years, and it only could happen because they let me live with them. I become like their third son. So that… And then- It’s amazing
because Tai Chi and Daoism,
it teaches me a lot of things about energy, and movement, and position, and balancing, and I put all that into my tea when I make tea. And I believe that’s what caused me to be a different tea person. And I could, I could direct my energy into the tea I’m making because I’m communicating. Mm-hmm. So that’s why the tea to m- to me, tastes better to me, of course.
I’m a little, my little vanity going up again. But- but, yeah, the… I, I, this, my, this life of mine has been very interesting and, almost everything is pointed towards tea. So I, I said earlier some of us were lucky enough-… or fortunate enough, tea chose you. Yeah. I really believe tea chose me.
I- Yeah… did not have any idea. None of these things that I would describe I knew beforehand. I did not know that on my birthday every year, they do the Star Praising Ceremony for me. And I become part of the temple. So the 10 years or so I spent being active in the temple, every birthday that I’m doing the Star Praising Ceremony for myself and every- everybody.
I mean, that’s… If that’s not destiny, I don’t know what is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can taste that, like you say, in the energy when we were doing the Pu-erh tea tasting, and you were so generous with the tasting, the flight. It was spectacular. I definitely taste that earthiness. I don’t know if it’s your energy because I didn’t know that you were making it then.
But it was ve- exquisite Pu-erh tea. Yeah. so thank you for sharing that with me, and I definitely feel… Like, I met you, I think, when I walk into your Imperial Tea Courts in San Francisco to have dim sum. And by the way, if you are listening and you are going to San Francisco, you have to go visit Roy’s Imperial Tea Courts.
It gave me a slice of kind of like Hong Kong experience, Roy. I loved the food and not only do you sell tea, I love the tea things you, you sell. And we haven’t even talked about it, the tea
things. Well, tea is such a big subject, Yes. It is. And I love the fact that I, I just let you roll, Roy. And then that’s it. We’re out of time. That’s the problem with me. You get to talk tea, I talk your ears off. I love it. I love it. So we’re gonna have to make a second time and, or a third time, because we are sharing something miraculous about tea that I think most people are not even aware of, the deep- To me, the tea spirit. And you have, in my conversations with you, you have awakened that tea spirit within me. Thank you. So I want to, I wanna thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you. I would look forward to more conversation. Absolutely. And, this is just only one passion left in my life, and, I love to share it.
I, I, I look at it as almost my duty. Tea has been so good to me. At least I can do is to give a little back and, let people know how other people can be so enthusiastic, about this one magic plant, and you don’t even have to get arrested to get high. just water and tea you could get high.
Closing Thoughts
01:08:58 Roy Fong:
So one-liner to button this entire talk, Roy what is the one thing tea taught you, I said earlier Yeah… be like water, be like tea. I think- That’s beautiful… it says all. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Roy. All right. Thank you. I appreciate your time and your sharing.
You have a fabulous weekend. Tea person. Thank you very much.
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Roy Fong?
Roy Fong founded Imperial Tea Court in San Francisco with his wife Grace, opening on July 4, 1993 on the edge of Chinatown. He has imported Chinese tea since the mid-1980s, beginning as West Coast distributor for the Yunnan Tea Import and Export Corporation, and is the author of The Great Teas of China.
What is the difference between sheng and shou Pu-erh?
Sheng is raw Pu-erh, made from green tea and aged slowly as it oxidises with air. Shou is ripe Pu-erh, where water is added to encourage bacteria that become mould and change the leaf. Roy Fong describes them as two different animals, though they begin as the same tea.
Why is aged Pu-erh tea so expensive?
Because every cake broken open is one less in the world. A standard Pu-erh cake weighs 357 grams, slightly less than a pound. Roy Fong sold 1989 cakes for $2,000 each after paying about $4 per kilo years earlier, and his buyer resold them in China for close to 100,000 yuan.
How should a beginner start drinking Pu-erh?
Find a vendor you can trust, preferably one who lets you sample and can explain things in a way you understand. Roy Fong cautions that buying directly in China is not always the better deal — and advises listening to your own palate rather than to sellers’ stories.
What is the “first hello” in tea tasting?
After rinsing the leaf, smell it before you drink. Roy Fong calls this your first hello between you and the tea. The fragrance, he says, tells you where the tea comes from, how old it is, how it was produced, and how it will reward you.
How old is the oldest living tea tree in Yunnan?
Over 1,800 years old, according to Roy Fong, and still protected as a local treasure — you can walk up to it and touch it. Several-hundred-year-old trees are common across the region, and pickers still climb them to harvest leaf.
